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		| Marty R. 
 
 
 Joined: 12 Feb 2006
 Posts: 5770
 Location: Rochester, NY, USA
 
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				|  Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 4:56 am    Post subject: Hopelessly stuck |   |  
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				| This is my classic nightmare of a puzzle: few bivalue cells, loads of four- and five-candidate cells and I can't eliminate a thing. 
 
  	  | Code: |  	  | +-----------------+-----------------+----------------+
 | 6    1238  138  | 2349  7    249  | 5    149   12  |
 | 23   5     4    | 1     23   89   | 789  789   6   |
 | 12   9     7    | 24568 2456 2458 | 248  148   3   |
 +-----------------+-----------------+----------------+
 | 139  136   2    | 3579  8    1579 | 37   3567  4   |
 | 5    13468 1368 | 2347  1234 1247 | 2378 3678  9   |
 | 7    348   389  | 23459 2345 6    | 1    358   258 |
 +-----------------+-----------------+----------------+
 | 8    1367  1369 | 4567  1456 1457 | 349  2     15  |
 | 1249 127   19   | 24578 1245 3    | 6    14589 158 |
 | 1234 1236  5    | 2468  9    1248 | 348  1348  7   |
 +-----------------+-----------------+----------------+
 
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 Play this puzzle online at the Daily Sudoku site
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		| nataraj 
 
 
 Joined: 03 Aug 2007
 Posts: 1048
 Location: near Vienna, Austria
 
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				|  Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 6:39 am    Post subject: |   |  
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				| Neither coloring nor Medusa seem to help ... 
 Where'd you find this baby?
 
 
 Edit: I let Andrew Stuart's Sudoku Solver take a shot at it.
 
 "Death Blossom"  and - get this - "Bowman Bingo"
 I'd say just a wee bit above my head
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		| Marty R. 
 
 
 Joined: 12 Feb 2006
 Posts: 5770
 Location: Rochester, NY, USA
 
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				|  Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 3:40 pm    Post subject: |   |  
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				|  	  | Quote: |  	  | Where'd you find this baby? | 
 
 This is from Paul's Pages, rated Outlaw, Gallery puzzle #81.
 
 http://www.paulspages.co.uk/sudoku/
 
 These puzzle are inconsistent, like most others are, but generally are fairly difficult, but this is ridiculous.
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		| storm_norm 
 
 
 Joined: 18 Oct 2007
 Posts: 1741
 
 
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				|  Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 10:17 pm    Post subject: |   |  
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				| S.E. ===>  8.9  !!! |  | 
	
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		| Marty R. 
 
 
 Joined: 12 Feb 2006
 Posts: 5770
 Location: Rochester, NY, USA
 
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				|  Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 12:39 am    Post subject: |   |  
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				|  	  | storm_norm wrote: |  	  | S.E. ===>  8.9  !!! | 
 OK, I'll bite, what's that supposed to mean?
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		| keith 
 
 
 Joined: 19 Sep 2005
 Posts: 3355
 Location: near Detroit, Michigan, USA
 
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				|  Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 1:39 am    Post subject: |   |  
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				| This is the rating from Sudoku Explainer. 
 Keith
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		| Marty R. 
 
 
 Joined: 12 Feb 2006
 Posts: 5770
 Location: Rochester, NY, USA
 
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				|  Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 3:45 am    Post subject: |   |  
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				|  	  | keith wrote: |  	  | This is the rating from Sudoku Explainer. 
 Keith
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 I assume a rating of 10 is the most difficult? Does anyone know what a typical VH from here would rate?
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		| storm_norm 
 
 
 Joined: 18 Oct 2007
 Posts: 1741
 
 
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				|  Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 3:55 am    Post subject: |   |  
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				|  	  | Marty R. wrote: |  	  |  	  | keith wrote: |  	  | This is the rating from Sudoku Explainer. 
 Keith
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 I assume a rating of 10 is the most difficult? Does anyone know what a typical VH from here would rate?
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 actually the hardest found go over 11 on sudoku explainer's rating scale.
 
 depending on how fast your computer is, the puzzles that go above a 10 will take the explainer an extremely long time to analyze.  I have read where a pentium 4 type processor took a good 8 hours to analyze a 10.6 or so puzzle.
 
 since all the VH puzzles here can be solved with x, xy, xyz-wings, then the ratings probably wouldn't go above a 5.0
 
 the explainer does not see w-wings, ER, or finned x-wings.
 
 instead, SE categorizes xy-chians, turbot fish, kites, skyscrapers, and color wraps/traps all as a subcategory of forcing chains.  a single forcing chain needed to solve a puzzle gives the puzzle at least a 7.0
 
 this is just a tad misleading because there are puzzles that require 13 forcing chains that get a rating of 7.2 and then there are some that require 3 forcing chains that get the same rating.
 
 APE, UR, Jellyfish, Swordfish, naked quad, hidden quad and BUG all get a rating below 7.0.
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		| ravel 
 
 
 Joined: 21 Apr 2006
 Posts: 536
 
 
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				|  Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 8:00 am    Post subject: |   |  
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				| You can find the SE rating scale here. So VH's would get a rating of 4.2 or 4.4 (like the one by gsf i just posted), but these puzzles also might require a hidden triple (naked something) or a swordfish. 
 Only a few puzzles with rating above say 7.5 can be solved in an elegant way (for my taste), most of them are pure chaining work.
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		| Marty R. 
 
 
 Joined: 12 Feb 2006
 Posts: 5770
 Location: Rochester, NY, USA
 
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				|  Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 3:46 pm    Post subject: |   |  
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				| Thanks for that information. |  | 
	
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		| Asellus 
 
 
 Joined: 05 Jun 2007
 Posts: 865
 Location: Sonoma County, CA, USA
 
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				|  Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 4:52 am    Post subject: |   |  
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				| Well... after staring at this thing for quite a while, my attention was drawn to some ALSs and grouped links that looked as if they might have potential.  Some complex multi-branched AICs later, I managed to eliminated some <1>s.  This comes mighty close to forcing... so close many won't see any difference.  But, I was led there by those patterns and not just a wild stab in the dark.  Still... elegant, it is not! 
 Because of all the branching, I will break the AICs up into separate fragments and label them with letters in brackets.
 
 [A] (1=2)r3c1
 [B] from A:  (2)r3c1-(2)r3c7=(2)r1c9-(2)r6c9=(2)r5c7
 [C] from A:  (2)r3c1-(2=3)r2c1-(3)r2c5=(3)r1c4
 [D] from C:  (3)r1c4-(3=2)r2c5
 [E] from B & D:  (2)r2c5|r5c7-(2)r5c456|r9c4=(2)r6c4
 [F] from D & E:  (2)r2c5|r6c4-(2)r8c45|r9c4=(2)r9c6
 [G] from A & F:  (2)r3c1|r9c6-(2)r89c1|r9c2=(2-7)r8c2=(7)r7c2-(7)r7c46=(7)r8c4
 [H] from C, G & E:  (2)r6c4|(3)r1c4|(7)r8c4-({237}=4)r5c4-(4)r5c2=(4)r6c2
 [I] from E & H:  (2)r6c4|(4)r6c2-({24}={358})r6c589-({38}=9)r6c3-(9=1)r8c3
 
 Thus, we have the following strong inference:  (1)r3c1=(1)r8c3
 and
 r1c3|r89c1<>1
 
 It doesn't appear to be of all that much help in moving forward.  But, at least it's something.
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		| keith 
 
 
 Joined: 19 Sep 2005
 Posts: 3355
 Location: near Detroit, Michigan, USA
 
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				|  Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 10:37 pm    Post subject: |   |  
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				|  	  | Asellus wrote: |  	  | Well... after staring at this thing for quite a while, ... | 
 
 Well, Sudoku Susser starts with these hints:
 
 R1C4<>9 (Implied by all valid values of R4C1)
 R7C2<>1 (Implied by all valid values of R7C2)
 R1C3<>1 (Implied by all R6=2 squares)
 R1C4<>9 (Implied by all R4=1 squares)
 R4C1<>3 (Implied by all B9=4 squares)
 R6C4<>3 (Implied by all B9=4 squares)
 R7C2<>1 (Implied by all R5=1 squares)
 R8C1<>1 (Implied by all R6=2 squares)
 R8C2<>1 (Implied by all R5=1 squares)
 R9C1<>1 (Implied by all R6=2 squares)
 
 Keith
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		| nataraj 
 
 
 Joined: 03 Aug 2007
 Posts: 1048
 Location: near Vienna, Austria
 
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				|  Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 11:41 pm    Post subject: |   |  
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				|  	  | keith wrote: |  	  |  	  | Asellus wrote: |  	  | Well... after staring at this thing for quite a while, ... | 
 
 Well, Sudoku Susser starts with these hints:
 
 R1C4<>9 (Implied by all valid values of R4C1)
 R7C2<>1 (Implied by all valid values of R7C2)
 R1C3<>1 (Implied by all R6=2 squares)
 R1C4<>9 (Implied by all R4=1 squares)
 R4C1<>3 (Implied by all B9=4 squares)
 R6C4<>3 (Implied by all B9=4 squares)
 R7C2<>1 (Implied by all R5=1 squares)
 R8C1<>1 (Implied by all R6=2 squares)
 R8C2<>1 (Implied by all R5=1 squares)
 R9C1<>1 (Implied by all R6=2 squares)
 
 Keith
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 and would there also be one among us to translate Suss into English ?
 
 
  	  | Quote: |  	  | R1C4<>9 (Implied by all valid values of R4C1)
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 sure man, plain as day...
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		| ravel 
 
 
 Joined: 21 Apr 2006
 Posts: 536
 
 
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				|  Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 10:20 am    Post subject: |   |  
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				| Its easy to see it for r4c1=1 and r4c1=9: r4c1=1 => r3c1=2 => r2c1=3 => r2c5<>3 => r1c4=3 => r1c4<>9
 r4c1=9 => r4c46<>9 => r6c4=9 => r1c4<>9
 
 But i had some troubles to see, why r4c1=3 should imply r1c4<>9. My first attempt ended in an empty cell
   r4c1=3 => [r4c7=7 and (r8c1=9 => r8c8<>9 => r7c7=9)] => r2c7=8 => r2c6=9
 
 And the elimination is not very useful ...
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		| nataraj 
 
 
 Joined: 03 Aug 2007
 Posts: 1048
 Location: near Vienna, Austria
 
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				|  Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 11:31 am    Post subject: |   |  
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				| Thanks, ravel! At least now I understand what susser is trying to say. 
 I can only guess at the method susser uses to arrive at these conclusions.
 
 In comparison, "Bowman Bingo" at least has a cute name.
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		| Asellus 
 
 
 Joined: 05 Jun 2007
 Posts: 865
 Location: Sonoma County, CA, USA
 
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				|  Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 5:15 am    Post subject: |   |  
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				| It didn't surprise me that those <1> eliminations are related to <2>s:  the AICs I listed are filled with <2>s, including all those of r6.  (When pointed out after the fact, I can see how the 3 <2>s of r6 all lead to the <1> eliminations.  But, I can't see any way to find such things other than explicit trial and error.) 
 After much more staring at this thing, I have found a rather simpler branched AIC that is useful:
 
 [A]:  ALS[(8)r8c9=(1)r78c9]
 [B] from A:  (1)r78c9-(1=2)r1c9-(2)r1c2=(2)r23c1
 [C] from A & B: (1)r78c9|(2)r23c1-ALS[({12}={348})r9c178]-(8)r9c46=(8)r8c4; r8c8<>8
 
 The notation may look formidable, but the AIC is actually not so hard to follow.  Here's the current grid so you can follow along:
 
  	  | Code: |  	  | +-------------------+--------------------+------------------+ | 6    1238   38    | 2349   7     249   | 5     149    12  |
 | 23   5      4     | 1      23    89    | 789   789    6   |
 | 12   9      7     | 24568  2456  2458  | 248   148    3   |
 +-------------------+--------------------+------------------+
 | 139  136    2     | 3579   8     1579  | 37    3567   4   |
 | 5    13468  1368  | 2347   1234  1247  | 2378  3678   9   |
 | 7    348    389   | 23459  2345  6     | 1     358    258 |
 +-------------------+--------------------+------------------+
 | 8    1367   1369  | 4567   1456  1457  | 349   2      15  |
 | 249  127    19    | 24578  1245  3     | 6     14589  158 |
 | 234  1236   5     | 2468   9     1248  | 348   1348   7   |
 +-------------------+--------------------+------------------+
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 Either r8c9 is <8> or there is a {15} locked pair in c9 and b9.
 The {15} locked pair means r1c9 is <2> and one of r23c1 is <2> and r9c1 is {34}.
 But, the {15} pair also means that r9c8 is {348}.
 These things together mean that r9c178 are a {348} locked triple, and r9c46 are not <8>.  Thus, r8c4 must be <8> since it is the only remaining <8> in b8.
 Since r8c9 and/or r8c4 is <8>, r8c8 cannot be <8>.
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		| keith 
 
 
 Joined: 19 Sep 2005
 Posts: 3355
 Location: near Detroit, Michigan, USA
 
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				|  Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 11:57 am    Post subject: |   |  
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				|  	  | nataraj wrote: |  	  | Thanks, ravel! At least now I understand what susser is trying to say. 
 I can only guess at the method susser uses to arrive at these conclusions.
 
 In comparison, "Bowman Bingo" at least has a cute name.
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 Sudoku Susser is using Bowman's Bingo.
 
 Keith
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		| Asellus 
 
 
 Joined: 05 Jun 2007
 Posts: 865
 Location: Sonoma County, CA, USA
 
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				|  Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 9:08 pm    Post subject: |   |  
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				| It is also possible to eliminate a couple of <5>s by exploiting that same r9 locked set: 
 [A]: (5=1)r7c9
 [B] from A: (1)r7c9-(1=2)r1c9-(2)r1c2=(2)r23c1
 [C] from A & B: (1)r7c9|(2)r23c1-({12}={348})r9c178-(8)r9c46=(8)r8c4
 [D] from A & C: (1)r7c9|(8)r8c4-({18}=5)r8c9; r6c9|r8c8<>5
 
 It may or may not be interesting that these <5>s and the <8> don't turn up in the Bingo.
 [Edit to remove inappropriate ALS notation.]
 
 Last edited by Asellus on Sun Jun 08, 2008 7:31 am; edited 1 time in total
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		| Asellus 
 
 
 Joined: 05 Jun 2007
 Posts: 865
 Location: Sonoma County, CA, USA
 
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				|  Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 7:29 am    Post subject: |   |  
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				| Hmmm... I keep being drawn back to this thing! 
  	  | Code: |  	  | +-------------------+--------------------+-----------------+ | 6    1238   38    | 2349   7     249   | 5     149   12  |
 | 23   5      4     | 1      23    89    | 789   789   6   |
 | 12   9      7     | 24568  2456  2458  | 248   148   3   |
 +-------------------+--------------------+-----------------+
 | 139  136    2     | 3579   8     1579  | 37    3567  4   |
 | 5    13468  1368  | 2347   1234  1247  | 2378  3678  9   |
 | 7    348    389   | 23459  2345  6     | 1     358   28  |
 +-------------------+--------------------+-----------------+
 | 8    1367   1369  | 4567   1456  1457  | 349   2     15  |
 | 249  127    19    | 24578  1245  3     | 6     149   158 |
 | 234  1236   5     | 2468   9     1248  | 348   1348  7   |
 +-------------------+--------------------+-----------------+
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 The <2> ER in box 1 is helpful again:
 
 [A]: (1=2)r1c9-(2=8)r6c9-ALS[(8=1)r78c9]
 [B]: (2)r1c9-(2)r1c2=(2)r23c1
 [C] from A & B: (1)r78c9|(2)r23c1-({12}={49})r8c18-(9=1)r8c3; r8c9<>1
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